Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Getting back to our origin of we the People, tackling current issues, both political and legal, with common sense.
As we the People, we must bring common sense back to make our lives better.
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Welcome to we the People, where we break down the systems that affect everyday Americans and replace fear with facts. I'm your hostess, Alina Gonzalez Dockery.
Today I'm joined by John Mitchell, a Houston based tax attorney, former IRS appeals officer, best selling author, and national speaker. With more than 30 years in tax preparation and controversy experience, John has handled over $100 million in IRS disputes and is one of only 10 professionals nationwide to pass the U.S. tax Court admission exam in 2024. We are tr. Truly blessed to have such an expert. And John is also fluent in Spanish and known for bringing calm clarity to complex tax issues.
John, thank you so much for joining me on we the People.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Yes. Elena. Oh, my God. You know, I, after that beautiful introduction, I think my head is going to be too big to fit in the frame. But I sure do appreciate the big invitation to be on your show. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. And thanks everybody out there for tuning in and watching our, you know, watching our show. I'm so happy to be here and I hope that I'm able to bring you folks some really good, you know, some good, solid information.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Well, and I'm so pleased that you are on because I truly believe that there is a specter of just say, like illusion, fear and just this thing about the irs and there's taxes and, and you have like, there are some people that just feel like if they receive anything from the irs, it's either like a prison sentence, oh my God, total extreme fear, or they'll stick their head in the sand.
And I'm so glad to have an expert of your caliber so we can kind of unpack and some of these false impressions or give priority or give priority advice to our viewers.
So, John, many taxpayers believe that once the IRS issues a decision that the door is closed. The belief creates fear, resignation, and costly mistakes.
And the IRS appeals process exists to resolve disputes without litigation.
But even for me as an attorney of three decades, I don't even understand really what is behind this appellate process.
So can you kind of glean a light on what it is that the IRS appeals process is about and how important it is for we taxpayers to utilize these tools available to us?
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah, Linda, absolutely. Like you said, I am a, a former appeals officer and I, you know, the, the thing about appeals is it start, it got started Way back in the 1920s, I'm thinking 1924, you know, around, around that time frame and what it was, Congress decided to provide a forum for taxpayers to be able to exercise their rights. You know, we go back to the basics, the Taxpayer Bill of Rights and one of the, and this is codified in Title 26 of the United States Code, right? Internal Revenue Code. So taxpayers have a right to have the, to be heard, right? They have a right to challenge an IRS position and be heard. And so Appeals, what basically appeals does, is it provides an opportunity for, for people, a fresh set of eyes to look at something. So I was in exam appeals, right? And so if, if somebody got an audit, they commonly call it, it's really not technically an audit, it's an examination. But you, you get an examination by the IRS and, you know, you feel like that you were not heard and you're not. Your point of view wasn't taken into account.
You know, then you can, of course, file an appeals protest and take, you know, kick that up to the appeals officer and have somebo. A second set of eyes take a look at it. And you know that, that goes into the appeals mission, you know, which is to settle disputes. Because if they're, you know, that there's got to be a way for you to register your, your complaint, have your, have your voice heard, and that that's where the dispute comes in. And so the IRS has this internal function that allows you to dispute things and have somebody else, a second set of eyes who has had no involvement in the case prior to take a look and make a determination. And so that's kind of what appeals is all about.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: So what type of cases are best suited for, for the, for the appeal?
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Well, okay, so IRS appeals, if you look at it structurally, it's divided into two parts, right? So you've got examination appeals, and you, and you've got collection appeals, examination appeals.
Whatever is at controversy arises from an IRS examination, right? So let's say they took, you know, the, the examiner, the revenue agent took a look at my gross income and said, John, you, you underreported your income or a basis calculation or deductions, right? Hey, John, we're not going to allow, you know, those, those travel deductions of yours, right?
And so if I, if I don't think that I've gotten a fair shake at the examination level, that's when I can come in and file the appeal and like I said, have that, have that second set of eyes, you know, take a look at things I Think, you know, part of what it is, a lot of people just are intimidated because, you know, let's, let's be honest, right? Like, I can change the tire on my car and I could even change the oil if I wanted to, but I can't rebuild my engine. I don't have the skill set for that. And, and so there are people out there, plenty of people out there that could take advantage of the appeals process.
And, and don't, because maybe they just don't know. And so to, to, to kind of round it out. What is a good case to take to appeals? Well, any. I would say anything. This is the advice I would give to my mom. This is the advice I would give to my brother, sister. Right. If you have a dispute with the irs, and that dispute is a few hundred dollars, I would write a check and be done with it. Right? Because maybe it's not worth taking the time and effort to, you know, to pursue everything. But if you have a, a dispute with the IRS and you feel like that you have a leg to stand on, and you feel like you weren't given a fair shake, and if it's enough money that it's worth it, then, yeah, you know, go ahead and use the process. There's no, you know, you don't really lose anything by, by doing it. So, you know, it's there. I would say use it well, and.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: I love that because I don't think people realize what rights they have after there's been a determination. And, and I agree with you. If it's something like, you know, a couple hundred dollars. I know that to some it maybe seem a lot of money, but is it worth all the time and, and cost of hiring an attorney to assist you?
But definitely it is. Interesting. And what common mistakes weaken a taxpayer's position during an appeal?
[00:08:12] Speaker B: Well, you know, there's a couple of big ones for, you know, maybe three big ones. Right. First of all, thinking you can do it yourself. Right. And, you know, I'm, I'm not here to tell people don't, you know, don't try things. But, you know, you might, you might be best served to get a professional involved, because I usually, when I take on a case, I usually am looking at it in the, in the mindset of, can I save this person a multiple of what they're going to pay me? If you're going to pay me $5,000, I'd like to save you $25,000. Right. And if not, you know, I've done this before. If it's A small enough case, it's a few hundred or a couple thousand dollars or whatever. I will, I've even offered to help people look, write the thing up and I'll take a look at it and give you some pointers and it'll just be a consult fee and that'll be it. Right. And so one of the, one of the things that people might do that, one of the mistakes that people could make would be not getting a professional involved in the process, you know, early on. You know, that's another, I guess, part B to that, waiting until things have gotten to a point, you know, because as you know, your rights in any context are use it or lose it. And so you, you have to exercise your rights within the time frame that's allowed. You know, you, you can't, you can't have your house catch on fire and it burns to the ground and then you call the fire department three days later to come throw water on the ashes. That doesn't do you any good. Right. So I would say get people involved early. And, and another thing, important aspect of it that people can sometimes get wrong. Document, document, document. Right. The IRS is a paper driven organization.
Documentation, right. As you know, you studied law. Burden of proof, right? So when you put something on a tax return, be it income item or expense item that you're going to deduct, you have to be able to back that up. You have, you have the burden of proof to show that, that, that, that deduction, for example, is legitimate.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: And I can't stress even more. So the documentation is key.
And I remember like this was when I was like, you know, summer job at my dad's company when I was in college and his company was, and we were pouring through and going through every scene and this is back, you know, I would say probably, but, you know, I'm going to date myself before the ease of scanning and the digital receipts and such. But we went through that and that was a, that was a valuable lesson for me because it's true. It's just having that documentation, having that receipt, being able to prove it up. And now as an attorney, I tell my clients all the time, you got to have documentation if you got a claim, if you're trying to argue a certain position, you got to be able to back it up. And that is so key. But also going to the experts.
I know for myself, I'm, I defer to experts all the time. I am, I know my specific area of law, I have my expertise, but I have no problems going to an attorney. Such as yourself or like the mechanic, any type of expert.
Up next, we're going to talk about how penalties and interest quietly snowball and what taxpayers can do before the situation spirals out of control. Tune back in after this.
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Welcome back to we the People.
And I am continuing my conversation with tax attorney, former IRS appeals officer expert John Mitchell.
And John, I want to talk to you about what quietly devastates taxpayers that you know, and that's when they have compounding effect of penalties and interest when tax issues are ignored or delayed. And I know off camera we were talking like I have some clients that they'll receive a notice from the IRS and they just bury it.
And it's something that is really rarely discussed.
So how quickly can these penalties and interests turn a small balance into a major problem?
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Well, you know, let me, you know, put it to you this way. One of the things that people don't realize, sometimes people fall into the trap of saying, well, I don't, I don't have money to pay my taxes, so I'll just not file because if I don't file, maybe the IRS won't realize or whatever. Right. And they won't be after me. And it kind of in their mind kind of takes the pressure off. But let me tell you that failure to file penalties, if we just talk about penalties, failure to file penalties are 10 times more than failure to pay penalties. So it would be, let's say it accumulates 5% a month failure to file versus 0.5% a month failure to pay. And so it's 10 times more. So first of all, I would give people the just generalized advice. It is much better to file your return and get it in on time and avoid 90% of your penalty to just by that. Right. So even if you don't have money to pay, go ahead and get your return filed and you're already going to be steps ahead. Now, a lot of times people come to me and they say, John, well, can we get rid of some of these penalties and interest? And there's a couple of ways to get rid of penalties.
You know, one of them is a first time abatement. And that's just an administrative way that. Well, it's an administrative measure that the IRS has in place that allows them, let's say you're a taxpayer, you've been filing on time for the past 10 years now. You've been doing things right. You don't have any, you know, penalties assessed against you or anything. And then all of a sudden, holy crap, you know, life happened. And now I've got this tax penalty. You can actually ask the IRS and in a lot of, a lot of cases they'll go ahead and do it for you. A first time abatement, that's where you just get that mulligan, right? You get that do over because it's your first time. Right? So that's one. The other way is significantly more involved. It's a reasonable cause. Right. And we could do hours and hours of chatting about reasonable cause, but just to say there's a couple of different ways to get rid of, of penalties. But interest is another thing. Interest is statutory and there's very narrow circumstances where you can get rid of interest. Right, I can get rid of interest. For example, let's say if the IRS caused the delays that led to the interest being charged. Right. I had a case where we claimed that and we, and we won on that point. They conceded because the revenue officer that had been working this particular case, either I went on extended vacation or retired or something. Anyway, the thing fell through the cracks and several months went by and the taxpayer ended up saying, hey, why is that my fault? Why are they charging me interest when I've been waiting on them all this time? And we were successfully able to make that argument in that case. But that's, you know, maybe one case out of 20 where we're able to get rid of interest. So penalties a lot of times can be gotten rid of, but interest many times cannot.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: So and for those, if you don't see me on there and all said, and I'm like really quiet or going, oh, wow, that's because I myself am learning so much from you, John. Thank you.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Well.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: And it is interesting because like I didn't even know like the abatement, so at least, and I could say with what I see, like with clients and stuff, and I always refer them to an attacks attorney or you know, go to the experts.
But I truly believe the way a client's mindset is about a situation or a challenge such as this can affect the way Things are handled as well. And in your vast experience being on both sides of that, of that table, what mindset shifts, help people face the text that head on and maybe in a more productive manner rather than just playing ostrich and avoiding it.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: You know, I've got a couple of good stories about that, right? Like one of the things I would say, just as a generalization, right, you want to go into the IRS office or, or if they're visiting you, whatever the case may be, or even on the phone, you know, these, these, these are huge. Believe it or not, these are human beings on the other side of the phone or on the other side of the table. And you may think that taxes are cut and dry because, you know, all the columns and the numbers and the spreadsheets and everything. But let me tell you, there always comes, it always comes down to. There's always, even if it's a small measure, there's always a small measure of a discretion, you know, there, right? Like, how are you going to look at it one way versus the other? And you want the discretion to fall in your, in your favor, right? So one of the things is just be nice and polite. Jesus. You know, we should not.
And in today's society, you know, maybe we have forgotten a lot of the golden rule, but treat other people the way that you would have them treat you.
I once had a guy who was, you know, up to here in the soup with the irs, and I called the auditor, the examiner off to the side and said, look, I said, let me, let me level with you. I said this, this guy's, you know, successful businessman and all, but you know what, this guy has about like an 8th or 9th grade education, right? And so in the end, and that stuck, and in the end, the auditor did not impose because one thing is for you to abate penalties. Another thing is a lot of times they have discretion not to even seek to impose those penalties in the first place. If they don't impose the penalty or propose the penalty, you're not now sitting there trying to argue first time abatement or reasonable cause because you don't have to abate a penalty that they didn't assert. And so, you know, be, be nice and kind and professional and that is going to go, go a long ways towards getting you where you want to be.
And so that says as a, as a taxpayer right now, as a professional, and my advice, I told people this all the time, right? Because, you know, you see, see these few little gray hairs here? People have come to me for for, you know, for some mentorship, some advice from time to time. Right. And I, I know 100% sure that your reputation precedes you when you do this on a regular basis.
And I'll tell you just this one quick story because it's one of my favorite stories. I worked for an attorney that had been in chief counsel's office for many years, and so he is well known around the irs. And we worked a couple of cases with a revenue agent.
And, and we had, I had actually gotten to go out to lunch and get to know this revenue agent a little bit.
Then we had a guy walk into the our office one day and he had a letter from this revenue agent. Now this letter says, dear sir, you reported a gross income on your tax return of $30,000, yet we have bank deposits of $500,000 in cash, you know, reported in your name.
Please contact me so that you can explain how this happens.
And long story short, so I want to take up the whole segment, but like, you know, it really honestly was a case of mistaken identity. And, and we could prove that, right?
But what happened was when I took the letter down the hall to my boss's office, he called the revenue agent on his cell phone and said, hey, this is, you know, so and so, this is so and so. I got a letter here with your name on it and it's mistaken identity and yada yada, we explained the whole thing. He put, he passed the phone to me and I explained how this is not what it looks like. Next day we got a letter on the fax machine, the audit is closed.
So I call the guy up, the revenue agent, and I said, hey, I said, seriously, that's all you need, right? Like, you know, actually, okay, today, day before, when we explained everything on the phone, he said, john, can you put that in writing for me? I said, yeah, right. So I wrote it up like a two page explanation, sent it off to him, case closed. And what happened was that was the correct, the correct result.
But because this revenue agent knew, and when I called him to ask him, he said, no, John, if my boss's name was Derek, he says, if you and Derek are telling me that this is on the up and up, that's good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned, this matter is done with. Right? And so instead of the client having to spend thousands of dollars to fight this, they spent hundreds of dollars.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Well, and that goes on to the adage, it's not what you know, it's who you know and who you know and how you treat others goes a long way. Yes John, for my viewers who want to learn more about resolving choose responsibly. Where can they find you your work and educational resources?
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Right. I mean the best way to get in touch with me is on my website, 999-tax help.com and you know, you, you can, you can send me an email.
You know, attorney mitchellm e is a good, is a good email and uh, you know, that's the main way that I work. So if you get it, shoot me an email. I'll be happy to, you know, hop on the phone and chat with people. You know, either be at a taxpayer or another professional. I like to, you know, help people out. So you know, feel, feel free to hit me up if they need to.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: Wonderful. We'll be right back. And when we return, we'll separate smart tax planning from dangerous shortcuts that can trigger audits and penalties. Tune right back in foreign.
Welcome back to we the People. We're here with John Mitchell helping viewers cut through tax confusion and misinformation.
One of the biggest challenges today is knowing which tax advice is safe and which advice could put you directly in the IRS crosshairs. And I can tell you looking on TikTok, going to YouTube may not be the most smart situation.
Going to someone such as John Mitchell, an expert in tax attorney, can help someone resolve a lot of presumptive problems or be preventative.
So John, you know, online tax advice often promises huge savings with little context. The line between legitimate tax planning and risky avoidance is critical and crossing it can lead to audits, penalties and lots of legal fees in trouble.
So understanding these principles and not shortcuts is the key to a sustainable compliance and for those especially business owners such. How do you distinguish solid tax planning from aggressive avoidance?
[00:25:45] Speaker B: You know one of the things that I always tell people, you have to be careful who you get advice from, right.
So I, I now look, I, I've been known to scroll through Tick Tock from time to time. That's a nice, you know, to me that's a nice little 15 minute here and there form of entertainment.
But I would not be stake in my financial life and my financial future on advice that I got from the other side of the screen because you know, the, the, the real honest truth is, you know, just about anybody, you know, I could throw on a white lab coat and you know, start a Tick Tock channel today and call myself Dr. John and you know, God help us all right? And so you know, anybody can be on the other side of that screen. And the problem is a lot of people, you know, you ever hear that, that saying, they know just enough to be dangerous. And so, you know, I saw a video a while back, and the guys on TikTok saying, oh, yeah, I read the Internal Revenue Code every day.
And oh, my goodness, I. That really makes my antenna go up, right? Because, you know, I'm a, I'm a tax professional, and I don't read the code every day. What would you be doing reading the code every day? Why. Why would you need to go back to federal statute every day, right? And so, you know, watch out for those big bombastic kind of pronouncements like that, right? Like, what do you mean you read the code every day?
See, the code is about, last time I checked, something in the neighborhood of 17,000 pages, right? So nobody knows it all, but we work within our areas of specialty. And so one of the things I would ask questions, first of all, I take anything that I see online with a gigantic grain of salt, you know, so there's good stuff out there, but you just got to be careful what your source is, right?
You know, I have a good friend named Jasmine, Jasmine Delucha. And she is, she's an attorney, CPA, and enrolled agent. And, and she puts out a lot of material. Her material is good, you know, but you got to know who, what, what is your source?
And I think the safe bet for a lot of people is if you, for example, see some kind of tax strategy or something on online, you know, you should really have a professional that you can go to, even if it cost you a consult fee. I mean, just go and check that out and say, hey, I heard, you know, I'm not offended when people come to me and say, hey, I heard XYZ online.
Fine, you know, great, but I'm. But kudos to you for coming and checking it out, right? So come to me and say, hey, I saw this thing, you know, that I can write my dog and cat office dependents. You know, how true is that? I'm gonna say, yeah, no, don't, don't do that, right? So, you know, you, you, you be sure and double check. And people like to say, oh, I go online and do my research, by the way. There's, you know, there's.
There's binding authority and non binding authority, persuasive, and then there's bs, right? And so you also have to be careful when you go online, make sure that you're reading things in reputable from reputable sources like I don't know, the Journal of Accountancy, for example, is a good one. Tax Notes is a good one. So make sure that you're getting your information from good, solid sources. And I think double check and triple check. If I hear some strategy, you know, of course, you know, not, not me personally, but I guess I would say if you hear some strategy, you know, double check it, see if you can find two or three different independent sources, reputable sources saying that, right? And then it might, you know, you, it might carry a little more weight and, and definitely before you commit your, your fortune, you know, and, and put your money on the line, you know, word to the wise, you might check with a tax professional, you know, me or somebody like me, to make sure that you're, you know, that you're on the right track.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: Well, and I love that because I too, I tick tock. It is addicting, but it's entertainment and, but it, it also, the other thing is, well, Chat GPT AI says I can do this. I'm like o hallucinates. It will tell you what it thinks you want to hear, you know, so don't just depend on what you going in on, whether it's Chat GPT or whatever AI co pilot, double check. And I tell that to clients. I love it when my clients go, well, I went on Chat GPT and it said da da, da, da da. And I'm looking at them like, okay, let me, let me show you the statute. Let me show you the case law.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: Yeah, here's the thing about Chat GPT. Let me just chime in on that. Right? That's absolutely right.
Chat GPT is going to give you an answer that largely depends on what question you asked it.
So first of all, are you even asking Chat GPT the right question? And that can be its own tricky little, you know, matter. And then, you know, one of the things I've done is I'll take, I'll, I'll pose a question to Chat GPT, take the answer, and then I'll feed that answer into Google Gemini and say, hey, what do you think about this?
Right? And then I'll take that answer that Gemini gives me and go to Grok or Perplexity and say, hey, what about this? And then I'll round robin it until I get a consensus among the, among the AIs, right? So I'm not saying don't use AI, but it's just like everything, you have to, you know, you have to watch, right? You have to watch and make sure that you're you know, you're asking the right question and make sure that you're really, you know, really vetting things that it's telling you.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love AI.
It has sped up so much. But it's true. Like, I love a friend of mine and she actually went to school to learn recently to go back to master's grade to, to learn more about AI and stuff. But she even told me, like, it gets stuck. And she goes, it's hallucinating. It will tell you it's going to prepare this document and this and that and come back and there's nothing. Or it will, I've noticed, like, I'll ask it general questions. Like a client, mine was insisting that I ask it. Well, I knew how to. I mean, I mean, I'm asking the question, I was referring back to the law or what have you go back. And it was not giving me a direct thesis. And I could see. It's like, you're right, though. It's about the questions. It's also because it's pulling everything off of the Internet and it can be pulling from faults or misinformed websites, things like that. And, and it's something that we all have to be aware of. I mean, yes, technology is advancing at a rate that's unbelievable and is a great tool.
Just be mindful of what you're reading and double check your resources. I think that's probably our best advice that we could collectively give.
And so what principles should guide ethical, sustainable tax planning for the entrepreneur? Let's say.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: All right, well, let's say. All right, let's say you're an entrepreneur out there and you know, the Supreme Court has famously ruled that everybody is well within their rights to organize their affairs in such a manner as to minimize the tax due. Right. So you can minimize your tax burden. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, you know, legally speaking. Right. You just got to make sure that you dot your eyes, cross your T's and make sure that the planning that you're doing is within the scope of what's permitted. And that's where. That's where. If you're going to talk about tax planning, that's where a real professional is going to come into play.
Because that is not for amateur. That I will say I'm going to die on that hill. Right. That is not amateur hour. You better. If you, if you're tax planning and you got, you know, six figures, seven figures, eight figures, whatever on the line, you definitely want to spend the money and take the time and effort and make sure that, that you're, that you're doing appropriate tax planning.
And, you know, and one of the things is, you know, don't be afraid to ask a, ask questions early and often. Ask a bunch of questions. I would ask my tax professional if I were on the other side of the table. Have you, you know, have you done this type of planning work before?
How did it go? You know, we're all, all of us in the tax business. We're familiar with, you know, the, the levels of, of certainty is, you know, this, this tax structure that I'm coming up with, right? Does it have a greater than 50% chance of being upheld if it were, you know, if it were scrutinized, does it have a 30% chance? Does it have an 80% chance? I would, I would be asking my tax professional, this thing that you're proposing that I do. How, how much of a sure thing is it? Right? And if you've got a competent professional that you're dealing with, they should be able to tell you, I would do that. I would tell a client. Look, there's a, I have an idea. We could try to do X, you know, in this, you know, fair, fair game. The client needs to know, right? They have a right to know. They should know. Look, this is not a sure thing. We can try this. I'm, I'm willing to put my name on it. I'm willing to give it a try. And, you know, it might or might not work. I had a few, like three or so years ago, I had a guy come in and he had fallen victim to a romance scam, right? And he lost, right, at nearly $1 million.
And the problem with that is he had taken money out of retirement accounts, he cashed out retirement accounts to, to send this money to, you know, some, you know, ghost of a lady overseas or whatever, right?
Long story short, I ended up proposing that we take a certain position on the tax return that it was going to, you know, save him a bunch of money. But I wrote him and I put this in writing. I said, look, I have a theory, right? I think that we can argue this.
It might work, it might not.
If it does, you know, then you're, you're good to go. If it doesn't, then I'm sorry. At least with my written letter, you're going to be able to avoid a lot of the penalties, because reliance on a tax professional will get you out of, you know, certain penalties, right? And so if I put this in writing for you, then you can tell the irs, look, you know, I sell farm machinery. I'm not a tax attorney. This guy that I put my trust in told me I could do this.
So I might have to go back and undo it and pay taxes, but at least I'm not going to, you know, get a bunch of steep penalties from it. Right. And so, Alina, you know. Right. Like for me to put my name on a letter like that, I had to have a pretty good feeling about the thing, the position that we're going to take. Right. And I did. And it turns out that about a year and a half to two years after that, the IRS chief counsel came out with guidance suggesting that the thing that I did was allowable.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing.
[00:37:54] Speaker B: But I was way out there on the leading edge that we. There was no guidance at the time I came up with this. But thank goodness it all worked out.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: Well, that is. And your poor client.
So coming up next, we're going to focus on regaining control, which I want to go back to this, you know, more stories of such because regaining the control that you may seem to have lost can be dealt with and achieved.
So tune right back in and we'll be back with more with John. Thank you.
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So we're back with John Mitchell and we're talking more about how you can regain your power, your sense of confidence when dealing with the irs.
And as we close today's conversation, John, how do you deal with your clients or help guide them so that they can regain some of the sense of control? Because I'm sorry, when I get an IRS letter or anything that might look like irs, I know I freeze up when I see that because it's like an instant, like, oh, you know, so how do you help your clients?
[00:39:57] Speaker B: Well, one of the things that I try to do is put things in and, you know, really greatly simplified terms. Right. Like I, I like to talk to people and help them understand because I have found that a good, you know, 50% of the problem of the, of the fear is just a lack of knowledge, lack of understanding of what's going to happen next and, and, you know, and how this can go and what's good, what's going to, you know, what it's going to be like, right?
You know, I tell this story a few times and, and this is, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't do family law. I do tax law, obviously. But I got a call once from a client, she's wanted to come in and see me, you know, just filed for, no, her husband was filing for divorce. And this lady called me up, she's been hiding out, hiding from, from process servers and, and didn't know what to do. And she called, you know, called me, you know, what, what can I do? And I still come by my office and, you know, I'll talk to you about it. I said, I can't give you advice on family law, but, but come on in and I'll, I'll chat with you, right?
And so she came in, she had all these questions and she says, well, you know what John is, is, you know, if the process server comes and finds me, is my, you know, is my soon to be ex, you know, gonna be with him, right? Because it was apparently some kind of, a, kind of an abusive type situation. And you know, are they going to track me down and find me? As you know, is my husband going to be there? I said, no, the process server is going to come alone and says, well, you know what's going to happen? Are they going to make me, are they going to make me sign something that I don't want to sign? And I said no. I said, come on into my office, we'll call the process server, we'll have him come serve you at my, at my office. I'm going to be right there and it's, everything's going to be fine. He's going to leave you some papers and he's going to leave and nobody's going to make you sign anything. And so I saw the sigh of relief in her and she said, now I know that now they're going to know that I'm not alone.
And that's very powerful.
So I was really privileged and pleased to be able to. And then I hooked her up with a friend of mine that does family law. And so all was well in the end, right?
But, but a big part of fear is you just don't know what's going to happen. And so I like to sit down up front and, and take the time to walk people through the process and explain and have them actually understand what's going to happen.
[00:42:36] Speaker A: And I can relate so well to your story because I do do family law and representing survivors of domestic violence, that is one of the key things. It is that fear. But it's true. It's like that sense of you're not alone, you have someone there to be an advocate to, to, to bear their, you know, the shield, be the sword for.
And you know, and it's so true. And it's, and it's a great example of why I think the stigma of attorney sometimes doesn't seem, you know, the way we're portrayed or the jokes doesn't seem to really portray what we really do. And it is to provide that reassurance for our clients.
So what, besides knowing that they are not alone, how, what other steps can help taxpayers feel more grounded and not go into overwhelm and the spiral of fear?
[00:43:30] Speaker B: You know, it's kind of counterintuitive. But what I would tell people is tackle your, tackle your tax problems early.
Don't let things sit around and fester. Right. If you get a letter from the irs, it's much better for you to open that letter up, read it the best you can, and there's all kinds of help, either be it online, the IRS website, believe it or not, they have pretty good, you know, plain, simple language explanations.
You type the letter number in the bottom corner of the letter. There's a, like a number, like it could be LT11 or a 1058 letter, whatever it may be. But you type that into the IRS website search bar and it brings up plain language explanation what that letter might be about and what to do about it. Right. And so you know, you can, you can do that if you're going to self help route or of course if you're, if you're going to come to somebody like me.
You know, I tell people that are working with me that are, that, that I, that are on, that I'm on retainer for. I tell them, look, if, you know, if you get anything at all from the government, send it my way, scan it and send it to me and I'll hop on the phone with you and explain what it is. And so, you know, I, I think part of it is just being proactive rather than reactive.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: Well, and it's a little bit of knowledge does go a long way. Yeah, but, and then having legal representation that just up levels your ability to deal with any challenges that come your way and, and John, you know, I haven't even asked you. Can you please tell me what is the title of your book and how can people once again get a hold of you because you're the guy that they want to talk to to discuss how they can do tax planning, but also just to be able to allay their fears if they do have an IRS issue.
[00:45:36] Speaker B: Right, right. Okay. Well, the title of my book, which I was very pleased to be a part of, this book with Jack Canfield. So if I say Jack Canfield, you might not. You might not recognize the name, or you may ring a bell, but you don't quite know. But if I say Chicken Soup for the Soul, then you're gonna say, oh, yeah, I know who that is. And so I, I was in the book with Jack Canfield, and the book's called Mindset Matters, and it's been out for a good long while now. It was Amazon bestseller.
And so that was, you know, one of these days we'll talk a segment about that whole experience that was, that was quite an experience right there.
So very pleased to be in that book with Jack. Jack Canfield and, and the folks over there that put the project together.
So that, that's kind of, you know, but look, I, you know, I had a funny experience. I, I went to an event and I was sitting out and, And a guy came and sat down at the table, and we're chatting and somebody came up to me and. And he realized that I was one of the speakers at the event and stuff. And he, he said to me, oh, my God, I, I was sitting here talking to you. I thought you were a regular guy.
And I said, well, I, I am a regular guy. What do you, what do you mean? Right. I am just a regular guy. But, you know, so, you know, I, I tried to be really alina. I try to be really approachable and, you know, talk to people as, as my time permits. And so again, like I said before, you know, if people need me, they can, you know, reach out and, and I'll do my best to try and chat with people for a few minutes and see if I can be a good fit to help them out.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: Well, and I definitely want you back on, by the way. I am already, like, I'm going to be going on Amazon to get the Mindset Matters book so we can talk about that and all other things. Mindset.
John, you have been such an amazing guest, providing such incredible, valuable information.
Thank you. Again, your clarity, you're calming your truth to a topic that is mystifying. Even to some people like myself, that you know it. Thank you. Because it is a mindset. But it's also more important to know that you don't have to go through this alone. There are exactly experts such as John out there to help you understand your. Your situation, but also provide you a game plan to assist you in overcoming any situation that you meet.
I am Alina Gonzalez Dakri. I want to wish everybody a happy holiday and we will see you come the New Year.
